And now’s the time on wAM to post a gratuitous picture of a bikini model. Women can be annoyed, outraged, or even secretly envious, and men can stare and…
what was I saying? Oh yes. Gratuitous bikini-babes. In this case, it’s actually not gratuitous. Or at least not very. Gratuitous would have been making it full-size. Bear with me as we appear to rapidly shift topic (and not for the last time in this post).
When you drive, you’re taking control of an oft multi-ton vehicle. Thousands of pounds (even kilos) of steel, plastic, aluminum and composite.
You accept responsibility for what you do, whether it’s in the curves or the straights. Now another topic shift, which some may not even notice as they gaze upon the curves below.
Caprice Bourret, in happier days. (Credit: apparently SnF)
The woman depicted above, Caprice Bourret, is a model who, most would agree, traded upon her looks very successfully for many years. She established herself in modeling, TV, acting, pop singing, and ‘fashion design’.
She appears to have gained a sense of entitlement from her successful trading, so much so that she chose to reduce her name to just “Caprice“.
Nice name. “Capricious” is indeed what it brings to mind. Befitting a woman of her… uh… well-rounded talents.
Any (says the blogger called ‘wolfe’) who choose to define themselves to the entire world simply by one name are ludicrously arrogant.
Enter Hubris, early one morning, late last year. Pulled over by the gloriously named PC Flashman, the lovely and talented Caprice was a trifle “tired and emotional“:
PC Flashman told the court that, at first, he did not recognise the superstar.
He said: ‘I could see a white female of scrawny build with bare shoulders in her late 30s wearing heavy make-up…’
He then asked her name and she simply replied: ‘Caprice.’
PC Flashman said: “I asked again: “Caprice who?”
Ouch. “scrawny build in her late 30s wearing heavy make-up“. What a come-down for a woman who’s lived off her body lo these many years.
She has admitted having drunk a bottle and a half of wine with lunch and a few glasses in the evening on the day before she was stopped by police.
OK. A bottle and a half of wine with lunch. How many of us do that? I mean… wow. “A few glasses in the evening”. She certainly had at least two bottles of wine in the afternoon and evening before she was stopped. Perhaps three.
Well at least she’s taking responsibility.
Oh. Wait.
But she says that, had it not been for the drugs she was taking for cystitis, the effects of the alcohol would have worn off by the time she was stopped.
2-3 bottles of wine, on a “scrawny” frame would have worn off? And drinking 2-3 bottles of wine over the course of an afternoon and evening isn’t a problem? While she was taking drugs that exacerbated the effects of the alcohol?
So much for responsibility.
I admit. This woman annoys me even more than Mel Gibson did. He too, got drunk, and tried to trade off his celebrity status and then spewed some truly vile things.
But at least he has achieved some things in his life other than look good in a bikini. He hasn’t tried to pose as a “one-name” wonder. Most importantly, he acknowledged what he’d done and apologized. Sincere? I don’t know. But it was, at the very least, the appearance of an acceptance of responsibility.
In the end, it’s this woman’s sense of entitlement, based on so little achievement, coupled with an utter unwillingness to accept responsibility that trouble me.
And yeah. There is some wider culpability too.
It isn’t major, but it’s there.
Global free markets, and the reality that men like to look at prettily scuplted female bodies glowing with youth allowed this woman to build up wealth and have her 2+ bottle of wine afternoons.
Men are to blame? No. She is.
But the message the picture above sends to women, and the message it would send to daughters — should I have any — is troubling.
A solution? None at hand, other than to emphasize the importance of personal responsibility, and not behaving like a privilege princess, regardless of your gender.
-wolfe
never heard of her.
@Female
And that’s a crueller comment that PC Flashman’s!
She’s big in the UK. Her image was widely used around the turn of the century to illustrate female pulchritude.
And now that I’ve done my token bow to outside-the-US culture, you can’t complain I’m overly US-centric!
-wolfe
well wolfe, I can’t say I take too much of an interest in bikini models..and I don’t think I will be beginning anytime soon either! Can your next pic be of Jake Gyllenhaal? Thanks in advance.
I would never say a man is to blame because a woman exploited his interest in her. Personal responsibility is a good way of putting it, as we all have assets we could use in many ways. Although men are easy targets, it is very troubling that young girls are too often taught to flaunt her physical beauty and sexuality in order to get what they want. (Or to get out of the trouble they “wander” into.)
I have a variety of gifts, and I can’t count the number of times when I’ve been told that I should “use” them to benefit myself financially. If I paint a beautiful picture, I’m told that I should sell it. If I come up with some great business strategy, I’m told I should pursue that as a career and make tons of money. And so it follows, I say, “I give a pretty good blow job, too? Should I see what I can make doing that for a living?”
My cathouse nick is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek statement on this very subject. I believe it always costs something to be with a woman. It all depends on what you want from her. (So I will agree that every woman is a whore in some sense, although not necessarily a cheating whore.)
It would do a man well to weigh the cost (even if it is just a little of his time) before pursuing something that may wind up costing him more than he wants to pay.
I would say the consequences of being mixed up with this type of capricious beauty would likely be very high. And although men are not to blame, there is a point where they ought to take personal responsibility in that they are willing to give in to the commodity of pussy and fuel the idiotic fire. Meow.
I think you’re quite correct. Blame isn’t present; responsibility is (on the part of men to weigh the costs, and say no where appropriate).
Your comment on ‘every woman is a whore (in some sense)’ reminds me of the possibly apocryphal story involving Winston Churchill and some grande dame (which you may well have heard).
Still, I’m not sure I agree with Dick’s thesis (even as amended by you). If nothing else, no child wants to think of his mother as a whore. That said, an overly rosy view of female (or even human) nature will get you in deep trouble.
No argument on what young girls are being taught; personally I believe it to be a byproduct of feminism.
-wolfe
Was that constable’s name really Flashman? Teh irony.
Yeah, it was. That put an otherwise humdrum story over the top for me. (Obviously there’s the George MacDonald Fraser link, but also simply the name ‘Flashman’ in contrast with a flash model).
-wolfe
Very sorry to pollute another thread… But I just had to say, very nice wolfe! Everything said on this thread so far is accurate. And interesting. Erm… are those breasts fake? They may not be ginormous but the shape is slightly odd. A little angular underneath, but it could just be the bikini.
Hi BIZ, not polluting at all. Sorry I didn’t see your comment until now. Welcome to the site.
Yeah, I’d guess those breasts are fake. I admit, I’m pretty pathetic and find her visually hot. Sad, really, since she’s such a messed up woman.
You’re welcome to post as long as you’re polite and everyone’s polite to you. (different rules from mabtw).
Brief summary, consider yourself in my [virtual] living room.
Best,
-wolfe
In a brief stint of whoring myself out (in an economic sense only - please) to a “medical device manufacturing” concern 10 years ago, I became nauseatingly familiar with breast implants. Educated opinion? Miss Whats-her-Name has saline (vastly inferior to reviled silicone) round implants. Probably McGhan or Mentor 370s. That shape was wildly popular in the heyday of Pamela Anderson (who continues to eerily defy gravity) and the other Baywatch lifeguards.
That’s the objective POV. Subjectively, women who have breasts that size and waists that tiny are as rare as two-headed snakes, despite what Hugh Hefner would lead us to believe.
Stay tuned for the result of wolfe’s research on the birthrate of two-headed snakes in the western hemisphere.
~Z~
During a brief & shameful stint of whoring myself out to a medical device manufacturer 10 years ago, I became nauseatingly familiar with breast implants.
Looks like a round, saline (vastly inferior to the much reviled silicone) implant. Probably 350-400 ccs.
That’s the objective POV. Subjectively, women who have breasts that large & waists that tiny are as rare as two-headed snakes.
Stay tuned for the result of wolfe’s research on the birthrate of two-headed snakes in the western hemisphere.
Z
Thanks for the welcome wolfe.
You’re not pathetic for finding her visually hot–it’s perfectly natural to want to look at something beautiful or attractive. Sensory pleasures (and the pursuit of them) tend to rule much of our existence. It’s the good things in life, as they say.
@Zog Count on it!
@BIZ hope you find something that interests you. As you can see, I post eclectically.
-wolfe
Let me just start this post by saying that I appreciate the fact that you (wolfe) was among the first (if not THE first) to attempt to encourage civil conversation when I first began posting, and though we may disagree on almost all important fundamentals, I appreciate that guesture. Thanks for having made the effort.
Think I’ve gone and done it again though. No doubt everyone will have something scathing in reply to my latest posts.
Hmmmm… Odd.
I visited the forums. Saw a post that both caught my eye and brough the raging ranter in me (frothing at the jaws) up to the surface. Posted accordingly. Over 24 hours later, and no replies. Maybe I worded it a little too universally neutral?
Not that I wanted to start a sh*t-slinging match, since that gets nobody anywhere of any positive importance; it was probably the fact that I posted under the name ‘random’.
(Accidentally signed in with the wrong email)
Yes, I’m sure you will find my posts if you look, especially since they were somewhat in reply to a few of yours…
Something about feminism being responsible for the suicide of young men.
wolfe, while your views on that subject may well have had a fragment of truth to them, then the reverse would also be automatically true: MABTW (and similar groups/whatever you call it) would then be guilty of causing young women to commit suicide.
Judging men and women on the merits of those of their gender that you knew before them is wrong. Especially when you judge them as a gender, not individual by individual.
This hopelessness is an epidemic that has virtually nothing to do with any one organisation, at least not any we could viably blame or hold accountable with any measure of success. Feminism has its drawbacks, faults, and inconsistencies, but so does the opposite, which MABTW (seems to) represent.
Neither are directly guilty of causing suicides. The virulent, senseless attitudes behind these gender-hating organisations, yes, but not the organisation itself. Or group, whatever. Personally I think ‘regime’ is a good term for it; has this ring to it.
Men and women are f*cked up these days. It’s a global disease. It’s going to get worse before it gets better, much worse, and holding either gender responsible will get us nowhere. Blaming a viciously pro-feminism organisation won’t help. Since women’s lib achieved its main purpose the worst of the fems have started female versions of MABTW and got laws passed and screwed with the legal system, et cetera. It’s not as though the legal system was a beautiful piece of work in the first place.
That young man (in the forum article) did not commit suicide because he may one day face a legal battle he will likely lose, over custody. He did not commit suicide for the reason that some shallow women may see him as a walking wallet. Those reasons are ridiculous. Harsh facts, but nothing to “/quitlife” over. For thousands of years, women and men have married for monetary reasons, or similar ones to do with wealth and status. Hopeless romantics soon learn better.
Meh, I should be used to it by now. The general attitudes are naive, self-conceited and not worth a pinch of dogsh*t in the real world. Spill your coffee? Blame women! If you’re a woman, blame men!
Now, what have we achieved? Oh, nothing to be honest, but at least we feel vindicated. You know that ‘I’m a worthwhile creature’ feeling you get when you have blamed someone who had no fault in the matter? Someone you haven’t even met? Yeah, that one.
Kinda like blaming the Jews for all that is wrong with the world. ‘Oh, but that’s not the same as blaming and condemning an entire gender!’ Yes; it is, the same principals are at work there.
I’m not having a go at you wolfe, even though you no doubt know by now that I hold anti-gender views to be a sick, childish joke at best; I was just hurt by that rather thoughtless placing of blame. Which is stupid because I’m not a feminazi, but I’m not a ‘real’ member of MABTW either. I’m pro-humanity in the best sense of the word. Therefore I’m pro-humans, but as my forum posts state, most people drop out of the ‘tests’ and fail to graduate into true humans.
I just sit in the middle trying to make sense of all the crap. These often-childish creatures call themselves ‘men’ and ‘women’?! Makes me ashamed to be a human sometimes, even though I’m not perfect by any means or any stretch of the imagination.
Feminazis, as with some MABTW members, do not all have evil intentions. (Not naming names, but also trying not to generalise.) It’s one thing to recognise a problem and try to fix it, and another to sit back bitching about it and tarring innocent people with the same brush just because they happen to be the same gender/race you hold responsible for all evil.
Forgive me the badly worded generalisations, since I only mean them specifically (applying to certain people and not everyone) but I make no distinction between racism and sexism, because the same corrupted lies are the founder of both… Cults? Sects? Religions? Whatever you want to call it, as long as you are truthful to yourself and don’t pretend it’s a good, decent club.
Yes women f*ck up, so do men, it’s fine to have an adult discussion of the faults and merits of your fellow human beings. But the rage and venom—! It’s fine to be angry, hurt, etc, bitter is understandable, but the blatant hypocrisy and slandering is horribly incorrect and an insult to yourselves and eachother, even though it is invariably directed at women. Women you’ve never even met.
Yes, I caterwaul the same at the Fems too, but I had more hope of getting a little sense out of you. Not to be sexist, I simply don’t understand women. Then again I don’t understand you either. Or men.
The generalisations and hatred is sickening and degenerate. Yes, there’s that word again, and I mean it in every sense other than personallly.
I feel bad, queasy to the stomach, to know that some of the mysogynists have daughters. Sure, I can believe that he might love her more than life itself, or whatever you wanna say. But I know from experience how that will turn out. She will treasure her father and his opinion, and his anti-female opinions (spoken or unspoken) will first make her feel like a piece of sh*t. She will wonder where she failed. Next she will try to be the woman her father would approve of.
Next she will realise there is no point: there is no forgiveness, no justice, no chance, she is worth less than nothing as a human being and automatically a whore by default. Whether she is or is not a freely sexual person, it doesn’t matter. Her innocence in any matter has no validity, she is guilty of everything or about to be. This will happen without the no-doubt devoted father ever even saying a word. His bitterness will destroy what good there might have been, regardless of his intentions in the matter. A good relationship of any kind between the genders starts with the mother and her son, and the father and his daughter. Children are far more perceptive than most adults realise.
For mercy’s sake, what can be worse to a little girl than her father having such attitudes? He will, whether he means to or not, twist her into the exact type of woman he hates. There is no positive end to bitterness held against anyone. I do not doubt that a woman-hater can love his daughter and wish the best for her. But a father’s opinion, however well hidden, will impact upon her.
Note that I do not challenge the fathering skills or love of any MABTW member, because even though I am not a parent, I have seen the way most parents (men AND women) will crawl over broken glass for their offspring, metaphorically speaking, suffering willingly. But I have never seen or heard of a positive end result from a mysogynist father-daughter relationship. Because there is none.
Mysogynist? Am I spelling that correctly? Not sure, and I don’t care. Mysogynist and misandrist: evil words for evil attitudes and producing evil actions, may they rot in hell.
What is innocence? Something to be destroyed? Nothing of any value or virtue, obviously! Make others pay for another’s crimes despite their innocence. Gender haters will destroy every generation they bear, the misandrists and the mysogynists. Despite any love they might bear their opposite-gender children, they will reap what they sow. While they are at it, they will also destroy the potential for the best in any same-gender children, preaching superiority and perfection that does not exist. None of their children will ever have a happy life and sucessful relationships unless they rid themselves of all the filth that their parents instilled in them. The parents set themselves up for this and worse.
The good news is that they tend to be so blissfully blind that they will never know the extent of the damage they have caused. They will not live 200 years to witness the aftermath of their idiocy. That is a mercy in itself, even though they quite likely would not have felt shame or guilt at their part in the destruction. To see, or more accurately percieve, and understand the harm they have fostered, would be a death in itself.
I don’t know you as a person, wolfe, but I had somehow gained the illusion that you were somewhere slightly above the rabid hate-fest of socially engineered puppets advocating punishment-before-crime for gender dismorphia. Well-educated and yet so illiterate in the language of life. F*ck that sounds corny, unless you know what I mean.
Guilty, all of them, until proven innocent? And even in that unlikely case, there is no forgiveness or understanding of anything. Hate a gender, have children, and destroy them with your shortcomings.
Someone as well-read as you should surely know that the people themselves cannot be held 100 per cent accountable. I thought. The world in general (regardless of where you live) is ill and foundering and people choose to blame the other gender… Like widely-learned and yet infinitely stupid, immature schoolchildren.
Slowly but surely, this world and mankind is going down the drain, and I for one will be glad to see it go.
I respect your opinions, and your right to voice them, even if I disagree with them. If you don’t want me to post on your blog at any time, simply say so and I will leave.
I also respect the fact that some of these people have been through hard times, long and bitter lives, etc. But so have we all, and it is NO excuse. I am not the one responsible for bringing miscreants to heel for having diseased philosophies, thankfully. I am also thankful that I am not the one who will be held accountable. I can even respect the fact that many people know the truth but cannot acknowledge, by choice or walls they have built around themselves.
But we are all accountable for what we do, one way or another, and by the time I’m an old geezer I want to be able to look back and know I never falsely accused anyone, deliberately made their lives harder, punished them for someone else’s crime or committed some other injustice. Good to be young and have hope, for sure, but after what life has served me it was a choice, not a blind byproduct of youth. I will f*ck up for sure. But at least I will make every effort not to do so, rather than rush forward eagerly to wreak harm.
I think I should stop posting on these threads and forums… I very much appreciate your (perhaps outworn) welcome and the chance for a good debate but the injustice and propaganda is more offensive than a 2-week old corpse.
Surely you can’t all be as blind as to blame, disrespect and hate one gender for things in general that are wrong with the world? That’s ridiculous. It’s the pasttime of either a fool or a small child. If you are then quit ranting impotently about it, get up and DO something about it. A sh*t example, sorry: but like the Fems. They may be largely wrong according to me, as are most of MABTW, but at least they are acting upon their beliefs. And like it or not they are changing our world.
For better or worse.
Sitting back and bitching about it achieves nothing, though there’s nothing wrong with talking. Talking is usaally the beginning of planning, which is the beginning of something more than nothing. Talking can be quite healthy. It just hasn’t the same effect as action, for making the world a better place, or more livable. I try not to hold grudges because another’s mistake (purposeful or not) shouldn’t take the helm and aim my life for me. Holding bitterness does just that.
Peace. (I wish.)
@BIZ, I think you utterly misread me. I’m not sure what you’re talking about exactly. Can you provide a link?
I shan’t reply in detail at this time, because I’m exhausted from an unusually long day’s work, and a) I shan’t express myself well and b) I don’t fully understand what you’re posting in reference to.
I welcome your posting here.
-wolfe
Don’t be so fast to say that you still welcome my posting… Heh.
I just don’t know whether I’ll be around these types of sites much more because gender-specific things either bore me to tears or horrify me with the arrogant, shameless hypocrisy. The stupidity of some people! And the damage they can do…
By the way don’t worry about trying to figure out what I’m talking about, I’m mostly ranting, and that covers/explains all my posts from the last 48 hours. (Pretty much.) Gender-supremacists p*ss me off as a rule, so that subject got thrown in there too, but it appears I have a raw nerve or two concerning suicide. I was completely unaware, until I read that topic on the forums and couldn’t suppress the urge to rant. Ah, well.
http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/forums/post-6271.html#6271
I’m not really good at the linking thing yet, so I don’t know if that will work.
There’s a few reasons as to why I’m on a ranting rampage right now (haha) but everything should be fine in the end. Sorry. Don’t take me too seriously for a bit. In fact that’s a good idea in general.
Peace.
Umm… Not sure as to whether that one went through. Said I was ‘flagged’ by the spam filter.
Anyway it was in the Politik section under the ‘Male Suicide Rate’ heading, I think.
Last post I tried to submit here didn’t seem to work, probably because I linked it wrong and it read as spam for some reason. Anyway, I was posting under the name ‘random’ and making enemies, by the looks of it. I ranted. I stand behind most of what I said, not that there was much point posting it on a forum where the only views that count are the male-worshipping ones.
Hmm, still raging; I simply find it hard to believe adults can stoop so low. Which is stupid, I should believe that and more. Anyway.
Peace.
Biz, I know your post was to wolfe but I would like to answer you also. I largely agree with you in that you can’t generalise to all individuals and true misogynists have obviously suffered horribly at the hands of a member of the opposite sex or been raised in a hateful environment. I think the often missed point of the posters on mabtw is that women are heavily influenced by feminism whether they know it or not because the hegemony of the Western culture (according to them) has been Feminism for the last thirty years, therefore it doesn’t matter that a female poster may say she isn’t a feminist, because as a product of her cultural upbringing, she has to be to some extent, assuming her family subscribed to and then raised her according to current social norms.
I understand from your post (which could be wrong) that you perceive wolfe and other mabtw members to be misogynists or feminazis. Don’t take offense to this but if this is true, I wonder if you notice that in doing this you yourself have compartmentalised and thus generalised the male and female posters on mabtw into only two different camps and according to your own logic, this cannot reflect reality.
@female
You’ve expressed in two paragraphs what I’ve just taken several hours over.
I truly dips me lid.
@BIZ
A lot here so I’ll just add some comments as I go through your post.
You would not be the first, nor last, person to rant on a blog. Indeed some folk do their best writing in that form.
Regarding feminism and young men suiciding more later.
When you refer to the “opposite” with regard to feminism I presume you mean the MRM or “mens’ rights movement”. To contrast the two it should be pointed out that feminism has been around for forty years while the MRM is in it’s infancy. Feminists have great influence in government, the judicial system, the media, the education system. Laws are written and systems changed in response to their wishes. The MRM does not have anything like their impact(yet). It has been largely reactionary but is maturing at a much greater rate. It is likely to do the opposite of feminism in that it began with extremists but will eventually be controlled by moderates.
Men and women are f*cked up these days. It’s a global disease.
Causality? The gender war, if seen as a battle between feminism and the MRM, is really only a feature of the western world.
Since women’s lib achieved its main purpose the worst of the fems have started female versions of MABTW and got laws passed and screwed with the legal system, et cetera. It’s not as though the legal system was a beautiful piece of work in the first place.
Started female versions of??? That was over twenty years ago. You weren’t born at the time!! Nor was the MRM. Our legal system is, as others have said, “the worst possible - apart from all the others”.
Spill your coffee? Blame women! If you’re a woman, blame men!
I won’t speak for others but I don’t “blame” women as a class for anything. I reserve my disdain for feminism. In my experience the more rational elements(most of them) of the MRM are consistant with this. Remember it is feminism which says all men are guilty. I see few in the MRM repaying the compliment. It is feminism which complains(falsely) that men as a class have oppressed women as a class throughout all of history and holds each and every man complicit. It is feminism which posits theories of “rape culture” and that all men are guilty of a rape committed by one man.
I just sit in the middle trying to make sense of all the crap. These often-childish creatures call themselves ‘men’ and ‘women’?! Makes me ashamed to be a human sometimes, even though I’m not perfect by any means or any stretch of the imagination.
You are not imperfect either. You are young, however, and like most of us will view much of the world as far more shocking than it actually turns out to be. Our species will never achieve perfection. The truth is that we muddle along in our civilisation. Our survival is more a sequence of unheralded mistakes than a triumph of perfection.
Feminazis, as with some MABTW members, do not all have evil intentions. (Not naming names, but also trying not to generalise.) It’s one thing to recognise a problem and try to fix it, and another to sit back bitching about it and tarring innocent people with the same brush just because they happen to be the same gender/race you hold responsible for all evil.
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Kinda like blaming the Jews for all that is wrong with the world. ‘Oh, but that’s not the same as blaming and condemning an entire gender!’ Yes; it is, the same principals are at work there.
MRM’s blame a political movement. Feminists blame a gender.
I feel bad, queasy to the stomach, to know that some of the mysogynists have daughters.
Misandrists have sons.
For mercy’s sake, what can be worse to a little girl than her father having such attitudes?
Possibly a boy having not only a mother but his school, the media, and all of society telling him he is a pig, a rapist, an oppressor, a bringer of war, death and destruction for no reason other than having a dick? If a girl learns from her father, or even the world at large, that she is a whore then she may become one because she believes she can do no better. What of the boy?
What is innocence? Something to be destroyed? Nothing of any value or virtue, obviously!
I’d leave others to comment on innocence generally except to say that of itself it is not a “virtue”. I have no experience of it personally. I’m a Capricorn(ducks for cover) so by definiton started out old and am getting younger and more innocent by the day.
Forgive me for seeming to psychoanalyse but are you becoming acutely aware of your own gradual loss of innocence? My understanding is that one of the last adult qualities to develop is that of empathy and that this occurs in most in their late teens. Is your seeming rage here really an indication that you are growing into a seriously empathetic person who sees what appears to be great pain around you. Hold onto the empathy but channel the rage into passion. You may do great things.
I don’t know you as a person, wolfe, but I had somehow gained the illusion that you were somewhere slightly above the rabid hate-fest of socially engineered puppets advocating punishment-before-crime for gender dismorphia. Well-educated and yet so illiterate in the language of life. F*ck that sounds corny, unless you know what I mean.
I’m not sure what wolfe has said to warrant this but I do recall him being very symathetic toward trans-sexuals and gender dismorphics but extremely disgusted at some pretending to those conditions.
You are very, very right about the typical attitudes of individuals in our culture however. People can be very fearful of difference particularly where it has sexual connotations. Somethimes I feel like cluebatting people into oblivion. I’ve settled for a slogan that I use as a signature everywhere possible.
In 95% of things 100% of people are alike. It’s the other 5%, the bits that are different, that make us interesting. It’s also the key to our existence, and future, as a species.
I think I should stop posting on these threads and forums… I very much appreciate your (perhaps outworn) welcome and the chance for a good debate but the injustice and propaganda is more offensive than a 2-week old corpse.
Surely you can’t all be as blind as to blame, disrespect and hate one gender for things in general that are wrong with the world? That’s ridiculous.
Maybe you didn’t quite grasp what MABTW is about. Ultimately it’s not much different to ages-old bantering about who’s the best driver or the best cook. There is no hatred of women implicit in that. When there has been serious hostility it generally surrounds those who enter with a hostile attitude.
Definitely do not stop posting, particularly on Musings. Consider that in confronting those we disagree with it is better to stay close and speak quietly rather than push them so far away we need to shout. You are a very intelligent and articulate young person. We have as much to learn from you as you from us. And given the gender ratio as it stands on Musings we blokes need all the help we can get.
Young men, suicides, feminism
While it is difficult to show any causal link between feminism and suicide among men it is also clear that the issue has no traction. Consider the following-
95% of workplace deaths
85% of all suicides and 90% among the young
huge proportion of the homeless approaching 100% in many demographics
All true of men and yet our society is seemingly indifferent. If any of these things were true of women it would be sceamed from the rooftops as proof positive of the patriarchal oppression of women. There would be internationally televised celebrity concerts raising funds. There would be royal commissions. Entire bureaucracies created. The UN would be all over it. It is the indifference and the obvious disposability of men it implies that I find abhorent. And feminism has played a role in that indifference.
Feminism, my biased attitude toward it
I originally posted this on another forum and possibly on MABTW at some point. It is of course only my view and is certainly worthy of criticism over specific detail on some things.
I go back to the seventies in terms of my active political involvement and worked with the women’s libbers of the time. That movement did stand for equality of opportunity. It correctly believed that we didn’t treat women as full adults. The libbers did believe that men and women needed to stand together to improve things for everybody.
Much of what they wanted was achieved in a very short time frame. At this point it fell prey to the same problem many political movements face when the primary goals are achieved. What now? Passion wanes among the membership and suddenly the rat bags, the extremists, are the only ones with the energy to keep pushing it along.
I pinpoint the introduction of affirmative action as the tipping point. This is the time when feminism moved from equality of opportunity to equality of outcome as it’s primary goal. This is the time when vengeance for the imagined wrongs of the past became part of the ideology. And there is no greater tyrant than the one seeking revenge.
Everything feminism has advocated since, even where the issues were genuine, has been grossly exaggerated at best and outright falsified at worst. It is incapable of acknowledging anything positve about men or anything negative about women. It plays the “strong woman� card when it suits but reverts to perpetual victim status at the drop of a hat. It defends the vilest of acts by women while demanding metaphorical lynchings of men who merely look at a woman the wrong way. It is the ultimate in passive aggression.
The majority of people when hearing the word feminism mistakenly identify it with women’s lib. This belief is so embedded in our culture that anyone who speaks against feminism is automatically assumed by most to be anti-woman.
Unfortunately it ceased being a movement for equality many years ago. What was once a pro women movement became an anti men movement.
On a lighter note
Q. How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb:
A. 11
One to screw it in
One to blame men for inventing such a faulty means of illumination
One to exclaim that the light-bulb has violated the socket
One to secretly wish that she was the socket.
One to blame men for not changing the bulb
One to blame men for trying to change the bulb instead of letting a woman do it
One to blame men for creating a society that discourages women from changing light bulbs
One to blame men for creating a society where women change too many light bulbs
One to assert that women light bulb changers are drastically underpaid compared to their male colleagues
One to alert the media that women are now “out-lightbulbing” men
One to just sit there taking pictures for her blog as photo-evidence that men are unnecessary.
Very good reply, all of you. I’m having a lot of trouble posting here wolfe… Some screen or another pops up and circumvents my post when I try to submit it. Don’t know why, but whatever.
I was by no means attempting to have a go at everyone at MABTW or feminist movements, just disagreeing with a portion of those people. You’re very right about women’s lib being confused with feminazis; however I have also made references to the nutcases with bad intentions getting these pro-male and pro-female organisations a bad name. I’ve also said that since women’s lib achieved its main purpose some supporters and activists have decided to continue, except as an anti-male movement, and that’s wrong. That post would be somewhere on the MABTW Feminism thread.
“For mercy’s sake, what can be worse to a little girl than her father having such attitudes?
Possibly a boy having not only a mother but his school, the media, and all of society telling him he is a pig, a rapist, an oppressor, a bringer of war, death and destruction for no reason other than having a dick? If a girl learns from her father, or even the world at large, that she is a whore then she may become one because she believes she can do no better. What of the boy?”
Yes that is another evil and I certainly don’t support that. I support the MRM, and I support WRM in the best case scenarios; I’m aghast at gender haters (male or female) having children, but I only mentioned the misogynist aspect. I didn’t express myself very well…
That’s why I wrote the following:
“A good relationship of any kind between the genders starts with the mother and her son, and the father and his daughter.” From experience, I could only offer the father-daughter dynamic. (I was raised as a girl.) Certainly though I disagree with fems (of the worst kind) and what happens to their boys. So just replace the ‘father’ with ‘mother’ and the ‘daughter’ with ’son’ and the same holds true. It would just be longer to type…
Maybe I should have gone with the father/mother daughter/son way of phrasing it, like a legal statement or something. All you need to do is switch a few bits and the same is still true. I thought you’d do that anyway, not take it as an exclusively anti-misogynist fathers bit of venting. You should know better by now (heh). The whole reverse-situation thing is often the best way to view the problem.
That rant has to do with misandrists and misogynists, since they know who they are. I would rant against feminazis and the damage they do their sons, but I save that for feminazi blogs.
Female you seem to have taken most of what I wrote in the wrong way.
“I understand from your post (which could be wrong) that you perceive wolfe and other mabtw members to be misogynists or feminazis.”
I don’t at all. That post was in regards to the few gender-haters that lurk about these forums and blogs and the earth in general. I was not naming names, and indeed I don’t know who I would name. I was ranting and it was largely directed towards gender-haters without accusing anyone. I wasn’t calling all the MABTW members either misogynists or feminazis at all.
Basically the sucide topic hit a nerve and I had a good old rage at everything to do with immoral and stupid gender-haters. If I had been viewing a computer-game blog at the time, I would most likely have ranted about something quite similar, like assh*les ruining other people’s games and how thoroughly they manage to do so. Has nothing much to do with the topic I’m afraid, it was a Things-I-Hate ranting.
Peace.
@BIZ
Pleased you’ve got it off your chest then. As I said there is often a place for a good old rant.
As much as we dislike extremists they have their place. They are a natural consequence of the spread of human beliefs, talents and emotions.
I’ve posted elsewhere about Germaine Greer and that, while I detest her recent behaviour, her extremism in the seventies was invaluable in giving others the opportunity to be heard on important issues.
The problems we do face in life should be viewed as opportunities. They force us to concentrate our attention on specifics and also give us the opportunty to improve other things while dealing with the issue at hand.
@gwallan
True. I only have a vague idea as to who Germaine Greer is though. I know she did something important that annoyed many people and had an impact on various aspects of life, but I tend to feel tainted simply by proxy with extremists. So my lack of knowledge concerning her might well be called blissful ignorance.
In my defence, I was homeschooled, and I’ll be 19 in a few days.
I agree with your point that extremists have their place, for historically speaking they have a habit of pushing the human race either forward or backward. Lives may be lost, destroyed or damaged in the process but it’s all in the name and cause of progression. Better than doing nothing with your life and having no impact, I suppose, it’s just the harm they can wreak and the hatred that ensues. Makes me hate and want to wreak some harm. Heh.
Very true that problems should be viewed as opportunities, I second that whole-heartedly. But what can you do? The state of the world in general is so hopeless. Not like it’s directly anyones’ responsibility though, and not like it’s ever likely to be “fixed”. So there’s no point toothaching over it. We’re all extremists in some way or another.
Biz, for what it’s worth, I actually interpreted what you said the same way Female did. So she and I were both wrong.
FWIW, I don’t think anyone much here is a ‘gender-hater’, though I don’t think any people here are great examples of lucky and successful gender-lovers either (gwallan might be an exception; the rest of us are either unfortunately divorced or (e.g. in my case) not married — to a person of the opposite sex).
Understandably.
Sorry you’re still having troubles posting. All of your recent posts seem to have gone through with no interventions from me… which is at least an improvement.
Take care,
-wolfe
@wolfe
I’m sort of in the same boat. Seperated out of a fifteen year relationship several years ago but now have a couple of “very close friends”. I may be different in that I don’t resent my ex - in fact I have a great deal of respect for her. Mind you, you should hear what my mum has to say!
@gwallan: I’m wondering if “very close friends” means the same thing as “friends with benefits.”
Respectfully,
~z~
I wasn’t calling anyone here a gender-hater; honestly I can’t tell who is or is not. Not surprised you two misunderstood me though (haha) since I really suck at getting across what I mean.
As for the problems posting, several posts appear to have vanished into cyberspace. Says they’re flagged by an anti-spam thingamajig; those posts never show. It reckons that they are awaiting the admin’s approval or something like that. Meh. It’s nothing important, most posts get through so it’s all good.
@zogmama
I guess it does but I’ve never liked the expression. I’d have much difficulty explaining it but sex as a “benefit” seems a bit of a misnomer to me. Maybe it just boils down to age and being beyond a point where sex and/or relationships and/or lurv are all-consuming.
There IS more to life. The older I get the more I realise I don’t know and the less time I have to learn it. There’s so much fascinating stuff in the universe and so many interesting(and important sometimes) things to do.
[edit by wolfe -- Biz, I didn't realize it was you. As I said over there, I apologize. You're still wrong (in my opinion) and inflammatory(definitely), but I'd have reacted more mildly with better memory. I shall try to do better as a good blog-host. -wolfe]
@wolfe
“Bear with me as we appear to rapidly shift topic (and not for the last time in this post).”
OK. Done. Think you can return the favor?
That snippet is from the top of this page. While your article there wasn’t “inflammatory” or whatever, and it was nice of you to give a warning about the rapid shift in topic, I didn’t realise it was compulsory to give fair warning about topic changes. (Or risk the wrath of wolfe and diamatik.)
That’s pretty much what you’re p*ssed off at me for over on the suicide-thread on the MABTW forums, isn’t it? I typed your name, (since the only part regarding you was a one-liner) then changed topic onto extremists. You missed the full-stop after the sentence that had your name in it, or something like that… I don’t know.
My communication skills suck but I don’t value human company enough to improve on them, so it’s gotta be half my fault you took it wrong, but man you kinda jumped the gun there. If I have sh*t to say about you I will do it to your face, or at least as directly as I can. I won’t make with the name-calling and accusations. Or even similitudes. It’s all one and the same, because the intent is the same.
I said I was shocked you appear to blame feminism for that dude’s suicide. That was the ONLY part of those two posts that had ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with you, wolfe. I now say I’m shocked you would so readlily believe that I would turn without warning and ‘passive-aggressively’ attack you/diamatik and blame you both for all and sundry.
I dread to think what you may read into that.
I don’t know how I can explain what I meant more clearly. You both read me wrong, I have apologised for the attacks you imagined I directed against you; perhaps you and diamatik should look up ‘rant’ in the dictionary?
Not presuming that you don’t understand it already, even though you both give no indication of this. I don’t pick up on hints and subtle taints to conversations so I read what you write as plain as the paper that it’s written on. (Metaphorically speaking.) Please do me the same courtesy.
Honestly I didn’t intend any offense to you or diamatik or anyone at MABTW, but I’m sick of saying that so perhaps I should put it in my signiature. Some seem all too eager to misconstrue whatever I type, maybe because our opinions and beliefs differ and therefore I am viewed as an enemy by default?
People aren’t my cup of tea, so I don’t know whether you will accept my explanation or apology, nor do I really care. If you don’t, then that’s the end of that; if you do, then it’s only a matter of time before my awkward social skills and general outsiderliness will lead you to misinterpret me again.
[@Biz - I accept it without reservation. Please accept mine (as you have). Yes, we shall clash again. Strong-willed intelligent people cannot resist doing so. Let's both try to make it less likely -- you at least by starting by signing all posts not under the name BIZ! -w]
Anyway, I wish you all peace.
[likewise -w]
@BIZ
Sometimes when we see what appears to be hate we should translate that to fear.
@gwallan
I’m not sure what you’re referring to. Strong fear often translates into hate, which is true, but probably not the exact meaning of your post. If you wish to elaborate I’m ‘all ears.’
@wolfe:
While we have had a few civilly conducted discussions etc, it often seems that when you are incensed towards me you have quite a lot to say, and it comes across in the most condescending, belittling way possible. (You know this by your choice of words to describe me or whatever I’ve said: ‘cute’ ’simpering’ ‘passive aggressive’ etc. ‘Troll’ and ‘troglodyte’ aren’t belittling because they are that ridiculous I can’t take them seriously. However, I take all the other things you said seriously.
Almost seems like you have more angry things to say than the situation warrants. Then again, you did take what I said wrong… If I was in your shoes, I’d be mad at BIZ too. Even if I was aware I misread and confused BIZ’s meaning.
[I readily admit, I run hot and cold on people. I had (and have) adopted 'Biz' as 'good person, though oft wrong'. I had no such read of 'random'. Yeah, sometimes I'm more angry than I need to be. No, I am not playing a patient person... I am a patient person... about 90% of the time! Of late, I'm exhausted. No, you're welcome. Just try and back things up by logic and look carefully at what you post and SIGN WHAT YOU POST if you post under a different name. -w]
Are you 100%, completely sure you don’t want me to bugger off? You’re often enacting the role of the mature one but I do wonder if you are as annoyed by me as diamatik, and just covering it. Well, sometimes covering it, at least.
[yep 100% sure.]
If only everyone stopped reading minds and intentions that aren’t there or even suggested. All this reading in between the lines… They say women do that a lot; I’ve noticed no gender differences on that one.
[in speech, women do it more. In writing? it's probably equal. Maybe men are worse. Dunno. -w]
@gwallan: No offense intended - I’m finding my way as a single person after being married my entire adult life (16 years). I work with men and I live with men. My attempts at re-entering the dating scene were very perplexing. Many of the idiosyncrasies ascribed to my gender seem quite true of men of a certain age - at least the few I met. Of course, I’m an odd duck, so perhpas it’s best that none of it seems particularly urgent or necessary at present.
~Z~
@zogmama
No offense taken at all(apart from one issue I’m seriously hard to offend). It did give me pause to think about the term which I hadn’t really done before. I’ve always found the dating scene perplexing actually and never really participated at all.
I wonder if those idiosyncracies you mention are more a consequence of a change in men generally during the time you’ve been married(chance to blame feminism - must take it while it’s there). But if, as I suspect, you’re talking about an age difference of early twenties to late thirties it’s probably quite natural.
Urgency, or more correctly a lack of urgency, seems the key to me. Strangely I’m becoming more urgent in my quest for knowledge and a need to achieve things politically while relationship matters are way on the back seat. Sometimes it’s when you’re not looking for something that it actually turns up.
Gotta ask - if you’re a duck - what sort would you be?
Just realised I hadn’t commented on Caprice. That’s easy and requires only one word - YUK.
Anyone interested in my ideal woman should see the middle part of my post here - Dakota Smith Rants
@gwallan: In my experience, unmarried men of my (great, advanced) age are either hopelessly bitter regarding past relationships and unable to move past them, or suffering from a rather distorted estimation of their overall attractiveness to the opposite sex. The former makes it nearly impossible to have a conversation without them dredging up past experiences and attributing overwhelmingly negative characteristics to their present companion. This also has the dampening effect of making dates feel like a forced march through a minefield. The latter includes much more than physical attractiveness ~ it gives them carte blanche to forget common courtesy and manners. It also encourages them to seek out the company of women many years younger than they.
I’ve dated younger men, but men in their 30s seem to be afflicted with the syndrome that women of my vintage suffered in our 20s; they want to get married and have babies.
So, what duck am I? Perhaps a muscovy. The females are small, they perch in trees (very unduck-ish), they’re personable and intelligent (for a duck, I guess), not especially attractive, and they make good mothers.
Abs….
~Z~
@Biz (and anyone interested) I’ve made some edits in post 28 and 30 (only adding to it) that convey my views. Please read them (Biz only, or any who wish).
Ha! on ‘great, advanced’. On the rest? Seriously, women 28+ (+/- 3 1SD) almost always have some extreme bitterness about men. I’ve noticed this. I used to only date women older than I — not because of any particular desire on my part because they simply were my peergroup (I’d graduated earlier, achieved a lot, etc).
At 25 it all changed.
-wolfe
My tongue was firmly in cheek when I referred to my great, advanced age - I was speaking as a man might in my age group. Men my age are dating women in their 20s, if they can manage it. I suppose that’s to avoid women who are suffering from extreme bitterness about men. However, judging from the presumed age of some of the female posters on MABTW, I think you’d have to rob the cradle - literally - to find someone of either sex who isn’t bitter about past relationships.
My (purely personal) observation is that men are more inclined to subscribe to the “baby out with the bathwater” method of dealing with conflict rather than talking through issues.
Then again, my track record in choosing a mate is abysmal.
~Z~
Yes wolfe I should have signed those posts. I posted on here explining the ‘random/BIZ’ situation but apparently those posts were flagged by the spam filter and are still awaiting the admin’s approval, or whatever it said. Like I said before, I’ve been having trouble posting on here.
My internet’s been dicky for a fair while though.
Well it appears with the inclusion of (+/- 3 ISD) that I have just managed to fit into this unfortunate category. Nevermind, next year I will luckily be out of it.
@Z yep, I got that you were speaking tongue in cheek!
@Biz np.
@Female To clarify. I meant ’single women older than 28 +/- 3 (1SD) almost invariably seem quite bitter towards men.
I told a friend (31) of this observation. She replied “No we don’t. F— you, you b**tard”, and stalked off.
I guess she put me in my place.
-wolfe
well that’s even worse news, in less than 1/2 a year I will be in this category! I am doomed. *sob* *hiccup*
@wolfe
She certainly did put you in your place. And it’s clearly the place with the big tick right under it.
lol Female and gwallan.
-wolfe