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Open thread for Women 2

Same rules as the last one.

210 Responses to “Open thread for Women 2”

  1. Female says:

    Simply a response to feeling patronized Teri, I might also add that you yourself can be quite passive aggressive, defensive and critical, but then that would be being like what I am critiquing so maybe I shouldn’t say that.

  2. zogmama says:

    @Female: To end an unsolicited critique with the phrase “so maybe I shouldn’t say that” is so ultimately passive-aggressive that I hope you intended your last post as a joke. If you did, I will say I found it in poor taste. If you did not, I will say that your need to dominate can be tiresome. Not every conversation is a contest to be won.

    Respectfully submitted.

  3. wolfe says:

    To other readers of this thread, I apologize for the lengthy response to Female. You may not find it worth your while, but you’re welcome to read it.

    @Female, you (or anyone) being (or not) an idiot is entirely independent of watching television.

    You’ll need to link to an article before I can possibly read it.

    Post 489 in this thread in response to your post 484 in the same thread. For those who don’t wish to visit MABTW, I’ll quote it: (NB- it is written much more forcefully than I’d write it here, given that it was written for MABTW)

    @Female, I was quite familiar with one of your references:

    Money, J. and Ehrhardt, A.A. (1972). Man and woman, boy and girl: the differentiation and dimorphism of gender identity from conception to maturity. Balitmore: John Hopkins.

    Female, that is absolute garbage and trash that verges on evil. Please don’t cite it. I’m sure you did so innocently, but if you’re being taught that in any course, you need to read this:

    http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press/2000/MAY/000512.HTM

    and this:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/reimer/

    Just to start.

    The second link details one of the horrific results of Money’s clinical practice.

    There’s a LOT more on the subject including a couple of books, but that’s available online.

    Dr. John Money espoused exactly the ideas that you are espousing — gender is mutable

    This was the very spot you raised the issue in, and used Money as a citation. There’s your link, which has been available for about a week as a direct response to your initial post.

    For days now, you have danced around the subject, making suppositions about what’s in what I linked rather than reading it. Now, you’ve taken to accusing me of not linking anything. I find this behavior frankly mystifying.

    I am aware that many of his decisions were incorrect. I did not cite him to support his conclusions, I cited him to make it clear that Gender Constancy as a psychological, developmental milestone is real and important.

    When you cite a man on gender mutability, who’s major practical body of work on the subject has been shown to be a destructive fraud, well, I don’t think you help your argument.

    You are the one who is arguing with me that Gender Constancy isn’t a valid developmental task

    No, I’m arguing something subtly different: Gender mutability, I contend, doesn’t exist in most people. I have no strong opinion on Gender Constancy (whatever that may be) and have never mentioned the phrase. Indeed, neither have you until this very post (199 in this thread).

    It is therefore difficult for me to understand (possibly I watch insufficient TV) how we can have been arguing about something neither of us ever mentioned.

    by telling me that you did the test and because your relatives all passed it and said “silly� this somehow seems to invalidate the existance of it as a valid developmental progression.

    Good grief!

    I did this because you suggested I do it. From post 484 in the previous thread, where you raised this issue:

    If you have younger relatives, do the test on them yourself. Ask toddlers whether they are a boy or a girl, then ask them if they will be a boy or a girl when they grow up. You may be surprised by their responses.

    That’s why I did the test that you yourself suggested, and reported the results.

    Is it possible that most boys and girls at some age don’t have a clear picture of what being male and female is? Perhaps. This is contrary to my views and observations, (and I think those of most parents!) but it is possible.

    Is gender mutable in most cases? No way.

    Regards,
    -wolfe

  4. Female says:

    test

  5. Female says:

    Z and Teri, all I will say to you both is that if you don’t like my comments, then do not read them, nor waste your time responding to them, because I will not change nor heed the advice of anyone who I think is being exactly how they accuse me of being.

    If someone casts judgement on me (condescending, whiny, whatever) then I will defend myself. If that means you feel you are dominated then ignore my posts because I don’t post out of a need to dominate and would actually prefer it myself not to have to continually justify myself to others. You either accept me or you don’t, but do not expect me to change for anyone.

  6. Female says:

    @Female, you (or anyone) being (or not) an idiot is entirely independent of watching television.

    Touche.

    Dr. John Money espoused exactly the ideas that you are espousing — gender is mutable

    I am not espousing that gender is mutable, even though you think that is what I am doing, even though I have no idea why.

    If you think my post on mabtw seemed to indicate gender is mutable, then yes it does, but only for the first 3 - 4 years of a child’s life before they obtain their stable sense of gender identity, which is derived from reaching an understanding of Gender Constancy.

    No, I’m arguing something subtly different: Gender mutability, I contend, doesn’t exist in most people. I have no strong opinion on Gender Constancy (whatever that may be) and have never mentioned the phrase. Indeed, neither have you until this very post (199 in this thread).

    It is therefore difficult for me to understand (possibly I watch insufficient TV) how we can have been arguing about something neither of us ever mentioned.

    As far as I know, we are not arguing but I do think that you have ignored my mentions of Gender Constancy and taken my post on mabtw a little too far or too seriously.

    Of course I do not believe gender is indefinately mutable. How dumb do you think I am? Fess’ up as I would prefer not to engage in conversations where people are treating me like an idiot based on their own assumptions.

  7. zogmama says:

    @wolfe: I was quite enjoying reading this line of reasoning regarding gender constancy vs mutability and was going to suggest you blog on it at some point, as it seems there are some readers who might have some pedestrian input (Diesel, Teri, myself?). I think now it’s gone off the rails, and I don’t much care to cross-reference to MABTW, but do consider it, won’t you? (I know, so many topics, so little time..)

    My apologies for contributing what now looks like an impolite and altogether inappropriate-for-the-parlour post at 202. “Aggressive when provoked” indeed.

    Contritely,

    ~Z~

  8. Teri says:

    I agree. I would like to know sometimes what I’m missing from the mabtw portions, as reference is made here to things as if we are jumping from one place to the other. I don’t make a fuss about this, as it is my own choice not to visit mabtw and I feel that if I’m missing those facts it’s my own fault.

    As for my provoking comment to Female, I don’t really like where it took her (and us) so I apologize (to all) for my pettiness. I was in a provocative mood. It was friday and I hadn’t gotten laid in a couple of days. ;)

  9. zogmama says:

    @Teri (ONLY): If that’s your excuse, I shan’t apologize at all. I’ve got months’ worth of excuses to be petty. :(

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