The traditional Libertarian argument is that you’ve a right to swing your fists as much as you want to (that’s a manly metaphor, for the slow readers amongst us) provided you don’t hit another’s nose.
Regular poster Teri is an awesome combination of left, right and libertarian. I regularly disagree with her, but she knows her mind and responds accordingly.
She said, on a recent thread:
I also think I should have the right not to wear a seatbelt or a helmet. I hate being micro-managed.
Well, she’s right and wrong.
I am not making up a single word of my response to this. Not that I normally do, but I might well spin a detail to tell a better story. I try to be a story-teller on this blog as well as a blogger. On stories I tell, I certainly shift the facts to protect people’s real-life identities; I also do so, as I say, to tell a better story. A conversation that occurred over two months might be condensed into 20 words. So be it.
Here I shall give you the unvarnished facts.
I was 17. Driving. With my mother. Oh God.
What worse punishment can you inflict upon a young man (or an older woman)?
She has the terror of not possessing his reflexes, and not knowing if he really knows what he’s doing. It wasn’t until years later that I realized that wheeling into a tight parking space at speed and relying on a downshift and brake combination to stop me was very disturbing to women. So much for sensitive Wolfe.
But leave that aside. The (true) story is this. I was approaching a red light in our aging 1980’s car. My mother screamed “STOP!!!”. I braked, being very uncertain as to what was happening and modulating the breaking so as to ensure we slowed then stopped about a foot short of the line.
I had about 250 milliseconds to recover from that unholy screech when WHAM!
WHAM!
WHAM!
WHAM!
we were run into repeatedly. Three to four times.
Whiplash city. Dull pain in my lower back.
Somehow, my brain processed the fact that I had to keep my foot on the brake.
Shaken, I picked up my glasses. My mother did the same. Then we realized we’d put each others’ glasses on.
After an embarrassing moment with my first cross-dressing experience (are glasses really gender-oriented?) we exchanged them. I put the vehicle in park, turned off the ignition, and asked her to call the police on her Cell.
I staggered out, wincing. I approached the 1970’s vehicle that had hit us, painted a hideous, well, forgive me, but this was the color… a hideous “shit brown”.
The elderly lady (probably 70 to 80) inside was semi comatose. I opened the door. I said loudly “Ma’am are you OK?” I repeated it, twice. (that means 3 times in total for those who’ve suffered from socialized education).
She stirred, and looked up at me perkily.
“Hi there!” she said.
“You’re ok, ma’am?” I was angry at her for smashing into me, but I was disoriented more than anything else. I did have enough presence to know I needed to call an ambulance, stat, if she was hurt.
She looked up at me and smiled sunnily, exposing her British dentist’s work.
“Oh…” she said, feebly, still smiling.
“Are you all right ma’am?”
“I braked.”
“Yes ma’am, but you didn’t stop.”
I was somewhat glacial.
She responded “Well, I wasn’t wearing this silly seatbelt and my head hit the window [windshield]….”
Yeah.
OK. So she didn’t want to wear her seatbelt so she slammed into me again and again and again.
My back is still a bit f-d up from that.
It was her choice; I paid the cost.
Sure, I could massively sue her, but why the #$(*) do that?
The
WHAM
WHAM
WHAM
where she kept bumping my car forward and slamming into me?
Yeah, she had the right to do so, I paid the cost.
And that’s where I draw the line. Where someone else has a right, and you pay the cost.
Especially when it’s something so trivial.
That’s why I moved towards being a conservative, rather than a libertarian. Libertarians were filled with imaginative but not very realistic solutions, mainly involving me suing her. She was an elderly lady. I didn’t want to do that.
Nevertheless, her choice of not wearing a seatbelt meant additional injury to me.
-wolfe
That was an odd story, wolfe. Yes, there are times when one who is NOT wearing a seatbelt may affect your safety. Such as when you are riding in someone’s car. If you are not belted and they get into an accident, your body could be a danger to them. So when someone asks me to wear a seatbelt in their car, I am not at all offended (nor do I feel as if I’m being micromanaged). If you ride in my car, though, I’m afraid that you’ll just have to make the choice to take that chance. It’s my car. (However, my mother asks me to wear a seatbelt and I always honor her wishes.) But generally, I’d say that my not wearing a seatbelt while driving my car alone is not in any way endangering others. Of course I am an unbelievably good driver, defensive to the hilt.
I do not for a second believe that they wrote the seat belt law in order to protect others from my hitting my head on the windshield and proceeding to repeatedly smash into them. That was a freakish accident, and I do not think you could convince me that there is enough evidence to back up using it to make a rule.
I also doubt very seriously that my not wearing a helmet while riding on the back of a Harley is a danger to anyone else. If I can’t have the wind in my hair, I don’t want it!
Give me liberty or give me death!
As an American, and therefore breezily unaware of legislation and medicine in other countries, my comment vis a vis wearing safety restraints is that you do indeed have the right to not wear a seatbelt and/or a helmet.
However, as a taxpayer, I do not have the right to withhold my hard-earned income to support you once you have lapsed into a vegetative state after flying through your windshield or bouncing down the freeway on your head, and you’ve reached the cap of your health insurance. That is, if you had any insurance to begin with.
You can’t legislate morality or common sense, but it frankly p*sses me off that my (seatbelted, helmeted) tax money goes to pay for people who exercise their right to become permanently disabled because they value their freedom.
I rode on the back of a Harley from Minneapolis to Sturgis and on to Martha’s Vineyard and down to New Orleans, without a helmet, and without a problem. Someone touched wood on my behalf.
I also lost control of my car (beginner’s bad luck) and had it fly end-over-end into a culvert when I was young and stone cold sober. No seatbelt - two fractured vertebrae and 50 stitches in my face. All covered by insurance, happily enough.
Just another side of the coin to think about.
Well I do not intend to ever use the tax payer’s money for any reason as long as I live. My belief system does not allow it. I suppose if I were to be in a coma and could not make that choice then yes, you would have to pay for it. It pisses me off that I have to pay tax money that goes to fund the military complex and the war effort. Those are very much against things I want to be a part of and no, I don’t think that just because I am an American that I should be forced to do so.
I’m sure it pisses people off that they have to pay for unwanted pregnancies, welfare children, abortions for girls who have no business using it as a form of birth control and many such things. Trouble is that MORE control is not the answer.
But I do appreciate the view of your side of the coin.
@Teri: Upon re-reading my post, I sound really angry at “you.” Please understand that my “I’s” and “me’s” are really about me. When I say “you” it’s used to mean anyone.
*sigh* Yep. Clear as mud - now it looks like it’s all about ME. Well, it’s all anecdotal on my part, but not meant to bash you.
~Z~
I was in a seven car smash exiting off a freeway at 90 km/hr. My car got hit from the back, I was third in the queue smash but I managed to break in time not to hit the woman in front of me, who had smashed into the man in front of her. All cars severely damaged but my car was unmarked. We could put this down to fate or excellent impact zone on bumper bar (I drive a piece of Korean crap, btw) however I, Sensei, know it is the work of my magical driving skillz.
Further because I love telling this story - the car that was behind me was smashed halfway into the engine, the windscreen was also mashed and the woman had smacked her head into the steering wheel and was bleeding. Amazingly, the back of my car did not have a scratch on it. I took it to two auto mechanics after that to check if there was damage to the undercarriage, they both said there was nothing wrong.
- insert Twilight Zone music here.
I was also uninjured, even though it was a jarring smash and my car was pushed forward about a metre.
Now here is the irony. Of all the people involved in the accident, I was the only one with full comprehensive motor insurance and of course, I didnt even need to use it.
No, we have to wear them, if you are not wearing one and you are driving, I think it’s a $200 fine and loss of 3 points off your license. Full registered driver starts off with 12 points. If you lose all your points you can’t drive. It takes several years to get your points back, depending on the nature of the offense.
If you are driving and wearing a seat belt, but a passenger in the car isnt wearing one, then I think it is the same or just a fine for the driver.
Motorcyclists and people riding bicycles also have to wear helmets by law, otherwise similar penalties.
You cannot ride a bicycle on the footpath, only on the main road, otherwise another fine.
No, actually we don’t have to wear one. As long as we are willing to pay the price (as with all things).
Laws vary from state to state. I found information showing that some states require seatbelts only for the front seat, if you are 18 and over. There were some states that had very minimum fines imposed for breaking the law. In 2004, New Hampshire was the only state in the union which did not have a seat belt law. I don’t know if it’s changed now. Most fines I saw listed were quoted at between $15 and $50, except Washington and Texas, which jumped up to $101 and $200, respectively.
Also, in Utah, you can legally ride a motorcycle sans a helmet.
Wolfe - Our political positions and evolutions are frighteningly similar. I once considered myself a libertarian and have moved to “conservative with libertarian tendencies” for the kind of practical reasons you describe.
The main problem with people not wearing helmets/seatbelts is that these same people tend to be idiots who have no health insurance. So who pays for their choice? Well, I do, in part. I guess we could amend our laws to allow emergency rooms to refuse to admit idiots, or to require that idiots pay their medical bills, but short of instituting debtor’s prison I see no practical way to do that (and that wouldn’t even do it). And of course the cost goes beyond medical bills to disability payments, unemployment, etc.
So do we get idiots to sign a waver saying, “Yes, I’m an idiot who expects to be left on the side of the road to die like the intellectual equivalent of a gopher that I am”? Or do we just say “Wear a friggin’ helmet, idiot!” Which is more intrusive? And, not to sound like a utilitarian, but which would have the better result overall?
This to Diesel and Teri:
@Diesel — They do seem similar! And my riff on your website about being the guy ‘reading the magazine’ while driving and smashing into people was probably an unconscious spin on the views expressed here… and reading Teri’s post popped this post out of my head.
@Diesel until the magical fairy-land results of [embryonic] stem-cell research kick in (which should be early January, now that we’ve collectively elected a Democratic Congress), I have no problem with paying to treat helmetless motorcyclists with basic care, as long as they refrain from drugs and activities that could give them HIV/HCV, and sign organ donor cards.
@Teri I think someone who doesn’t wear a helmet is crazy (not intended literally, and not intended as a personal insult; I sometimes call myself a crazy conservative), but I support the right of people to be crazy as long as they don’t hurt others. (Diesel does raise a good financial point; you make your views clear, but the ER docs aren’t going to check your views). I’ve personal experience in the virtues of wearing a helmet, but that’s another story.
@Teri Do you drive on public roads?
Since I’ve given you a bit of a hard time, I certainly applaud that comment!
Best,
-wolfe
@Z you didn’t come off to me as mad at Teri, but good idea to make it clear. I largely agree with your comments.
@Female What a bizarre story. Must be your mad driving skillz indeed.
Sometime I’ll post about the 5 or so road accidents (2 involving bicycles) I’ve been through in my life. Defensive driving didn’t help me. Curiously, ever since taking an offensive driving course, I’ve not had any accidents, yet drive more. I’ve become a big fan of offensive driving (combined with defensive), though I agree it’s not for everyone.
-wolfe
Ahem magical driving skillz.
I’m not sure what offensive driving is, is that where you drive so badly you offend everyone else on the road?
Come on, wolfe, you are way too cool to take such cheap shots. Of course I drive on public roads. I pay taxes. But I also drive on public roads in Mexico. And in the Philippines. I don’t even pay taxes there! You know exactly what I meant. I don’t unduly seek “assistance” from the government.
And what about condoms. Should the use of them during sexual intercourse be legally regulated? You could wind up paying for people who get AIDS or even lesser, but still expensive, STDs! And should I have to show evidence of health insurance to buy cigarettes? I mean how much of your tax money could conceivably be going to treat people with smoking related illnesses? Those of you who don’t like being a part of a system that allows your tax money to be spent in ways you don’t like should go about changing the legislation. Instead of hammering on people like me who just want to ride a motorcycle the way we enjoy it.
To refer to people as “idiots” simply because they don’t choose the same bondages as you do is beyond small minded and ill thought out. You live in a society that has made laws that take care of one another. I think you like that about your society. I don’t think the road of more control is really the answer.
I shudder to think what you all would do if you really knew the things I was up to in a moving vehicle! I mean what I did to my boyfriend while he was driving last night! Oh, and yeah.. I’ll bet you guys would just totally turn that one down. I mean, in the interest of safety.
Sheesh. Tie me up and throw me in the goddamn river. I tell ya. Death is the better option in the future you all seem to have to offer.
Mad and magical!
Heh. No. Here’s a totally silly video on the subject:
http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1134476339/School_Of_Offensive_Driving
Now that’s mostly wrong, but it’s funny. Much of offensive driving is evading terror attacks, criminals, carjackings, etc. But a lot of it isn’t.
More seriously, offensive driving is about recognizing dangers around you, and operating proactively, rather than reactively. See someone who’s weaving, driving badly? Get ahead of him or well behind him (or her). Large tractor trailer? Stay away. He’s a good driver (almost all are male), but if there’s an accident, you will die. Get ahead, stay well behind. Choose appropriately.
See a young male driving? Stay away. Danger. See a young supervised female driving? You’re probably safe unless it’s low velocity town traffic. Then stay away. See a young unsupervised female driving in a car filled with friends? Stay well, well, away. Disaster.
Just have a great deal of situational awareness and act so you don’t have to react.
It sounds simple, but the course is well worth it (IMO). I’d not have taken it, but the company made senior officers and directors do so, and I’m glad they did.
Best,
-wolfe
@Teri — I said crazy, I didn’t say idiot. And in my use of crazy, I’ve repeatedly included myself as a ‘crazy conservative’.
As for Phillipines and Mexico, you probably do pay taxes there. Do you buy gas there? Buy anything there? Stay in hotels? Taxes are involved. Sure, obviously you’re annoyed at what you view as a cheap shot. All I’m trying to say is not living off of taxpayer’s munificence — is tougher than it looks, precisely because we have such a highly socialized society.
Do I support that? No, not as much as you think I do.
Again, I didn’t refer to idiots. I do think it’s non-rational, yes. I respect the right of people to make non-rational choices. I think you’re being unkind to refer to me as choosing ‘bondages’.
I choose to wear seatbelts. I don’t do so because the government makes me. I choose to wear a helmet — even when I’m riding on private property! But that’s my freaking choice! You’ve a right to make the choice not to wear a helmet, I’ve no serious issue with that, as long as you sign your organ donor card.
Your ‘bondages’ analysis is wrong, as is your ‘idiot’ statement.
Yeah I would turn a blowjob in a moving vehicle that I was driving down.
It’d be hard (ha!) but I’d do it.
Do I think you should be arrested for doing so? No.
Because I don’t support that level of surveillance and control.
Even if a cop caught you two doing that, I’d support a warning for dangerous driving. No more. Ever. Because to go beyond a warning means surveillance.
Teri, you think I desire a great deal of control over people’s lives. You are mistaken. I don’t. Quite the reverse. I’ll post on this at some time.
-wolfe
I am so very much an offensive driver. 16 years driving and no accidents, other than hitting a few mailboxes, almost going through the garage wall into the loungeroom and of course the freeway stack (which was a Man’s fault, heh).
wolfe ~
Actually, my “idiots” comment was aimed at Diesel.
And is it really dependent on my filling out my donor card for it to be okay with you that I don’t wear a helmet?
Also, I don’t think you desire a “great deal of control over people’s lives.” My comments were aimed at the general commentary. There was a clear theme.
Female ~
No accidents, except for the accidents?
that’s right, hee.
@Teri No, [no need for donor card].
As Borat would say “I kiss you!” (just not while driving!) And I apologize for missing your posts (on your blog) on Bernard Goldberg, a topic I find very interesting. I’ve since commented.
You are right though, I do aim for somewhat more ‘control’ than you do. Fair enough to note, though I don’t aim as highly as you seem to think I do. As for the general tenor of ‘control’ in the thread, well women are involved. (wolfe /ducks).
-wolfe
wolfe ~
I do not see you as controlling at all. Funny comment about women, though. My youngest son’s girlfriend just had a fit tonight over something she couldn’t get and threw something at his car as he drove away, shattering his back window. I’m severely disturbed by this. Especially since she’s carrying my grandchild.
And who said it was a blowjob? I just gave him a good licking. And protest hard (ha!) as you like, methinks you would NOT turn it down. You’d likely just find a very close hotel room… and soon! That’s why they “leave the light on.”
Z ~ I keep forgetting to mention that I didn’t take your tone as angry either. For what it’s worth, but I appreciate your sensitivity to the possibility.
Sorry, I started the talk of “idiots.” To be fair, I said that “these same people tend to be idiots”, not that they necessarily ARE idiots. Anyway, I’m kind of an idiot myself sometimes. Hopefully my idiocy won’t get me killed, or prevent me from getting emergency medical care if I need it.
Wolfe, as a side note: I once wiped out on my motorcycle while wearing a helmet, leather jacket, jeans, gloves, and leather shoes. No socks for some reason though. Guess where the bike landed? On top of my ankle, of course, causing my bare skin to scrape the pavement for several feet. No serious injury, but I still have a scar.
I never realized that “offensive driving” was a term. I’ve just always included it in with defensive driving. I’ve been driving like that for thirty years. Just made sense. I constantly make sure that I’m not in a blindspot, and exhaustively anticipate what move a driver might mistakenly (or recklessly) make. It’s quite a mental challenge, driving. But yes, in the thirty years, I’ve never been in an accident. It could be my upbringing. Dad always taught me to be ready for anything… and never to drink and drive ’cause I might spill my drink.
@Teri-20 No comment
@Diesel-21 Ouch. And yeah, I use the term ‘idiot’ the way you did, so it slipped by me.
@Teri-22 Someday soon I’ll tell the story of another ‘wolfe-cident’ where I stopped one of America’s most wanted. (Well that’s what the FBI guy said, I think he was exaggerating, though).
-wolfe